Curse

upier · Dec 20, 2008, 08:50 AM // 08:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by romeus petrus

CoP is a PvE skill, it is meant to be overpowered.

There.
Nerf it.

(The issue is that even for a PvE skill it's a bit out there. If it wasn't - people wouldn't be running it. Currently it isn't a choice between YMLD! or FH! or CoP. It's CoP or bust.)

kostolomac · Dec 20, 2008, 09:27 AM // 09:27

The best way to check if a skill deserves to be nerfed: Do PUGS use it a lot?
It doesn't necessary need to be OP , but if PUGS can run and get the job done then it must be overpowered , don't mind the really OP skills , PUGS don't use them so it's OK. So , SY! is fine because pugs don't run it , and CoP deserves the chop./sarcasm

And don't use DoA , Urgoz or the Deep for proving your points , those areas are the most idiotic things ANET has EVER done about pve. Instead of giving the enemies even mediocre builds and make the teams varied , ANET gave them stupid effects , gimmick builds and most of the time the teams are composed of monsters of the same class which makes it even more gimmicky.

upier · Dec 20, 2008, 10:41 AM // 10:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

The best way to check if a skill deserves to be nerfed: Do PUGS use it a lot?
It doesn't necessary need to be OP , but if PUGS can run and get the job done then it must be overpowered , don't mind the really OP skills , PUGS don't use them so it's OK. So , SY! is fine because pugs don't run it , and CoP deserves the chop./sarcasm

You are equaling PUGs with morons.
Because only morons do not see how insanely overpowered SY! is. And those players still succeed at PvE.

Yeah, make them cry.

If bad players would be made to cry bitter tears because they would fail at GW - HM wouldn't need to be this moronic idea that it is.
And that's the real problem that PvE skills pose - they prevent an objective look at PvE because they enable overcoming obstacles that shouldn't even exist in the first place.

kostolomac · Dec 20, 2008, 11:39 AM // 11:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And that's the real problem that PvE skills pose - they prevent an objective look at PvE because they enable overcoming obstacles that shouldn't even exist in the first place.

Then why remove or nerf pve skills when they are not the root of the problem?

upier · Dec 20, 2008, 11:54 AM // 11:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

Then why remove or nerf pve skills when they are not the root of the problem?

Because as long as the bandage that are the PvE skill is in the game - the game will not be fixed.
If you remove the bandage though - the shitty reality of PvE appears and people will start throwing hissy fits and A.Net will be forced to do something about it.

That's probably also the reason why PvE skills are so overpowered - because the players would need to give up their best guns if they wanted a better game.
And most don't.
Which means A.net can continue being lazy and the players don't even notice that they are getting screwed.

kostolomac · Dec 20, 2008, 12:14 PM // 12:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Because as long as the bandage that are the PvE skill is in the game - the game will not be fixed.
If you remove the bandage though - the shitty reality of PvE appears and people will start throwing hissy fits and A.Net will be forced to do something about it.

I thought that PvE skills were A.Net's way of "fixing" pve.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

That's probably also the reason why PvE skills are so overpowered - because the players would need to give up their best guns if they wanted a better game.
And most don't.
Which means A.net can continue being lazy and the players don't even notice that they are getting screwed.

I doubt that if pve skills were removed or nerfed A.net will change any other part of pve.

xeRox teh Sorcerer · Dec 20, 2008, 12:37 PM // 12:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

And don't use DoA , Urgoz or the Deep for proving your points ,

We're discussing Cryway - these (and fow) are the only places its used. Kinda hard not to use them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

Do PUGS use it a lot?

No, and when they do it is very ineffective. You won't be getting the amazing SC times Cryway gets with guild runs. In fact, you'll be lucky to get a tank that has a clue about balling.

upier · Dec 20, 2008, 12:39 PM // 12:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

I thought that PvE skills were A.Net's way of "fixing" pve.

Yeah, the quotation marks in the "fix" are the issue here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

I doubt that if pve skills were removed or nerfed A.net will change any other part of pve.

They'd fix it if they were forced to do so.
And there is no way that they can be forced to do so if people accept the shitty bandage.

Light of Cantha · Dec 20, 2008, 01:21 PM // 13:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

They'd fix it if they were forced to do so.
And there is no way that they can be forced to do so if people accept the shitty bandage.

That's overly optimistic. The same problems that exist now with PvE, existed before these overpowered PvE skills were introduced. DoA was flawed for years and it saw little change, and I think when HM was introduced, the only PvE skills that were available were the Sunspear ones. Could be wrong though, it's been awhile. I just don't recall CoP being used when HM was launched.

Fixing the issues with PvE would require a pretty big change, something I imagine would be very time consuming. I just don't see A.Net investing the time required; nor should they. Their efforts should be geared towards GW2. That band aid is about the best thing you're going to get.

HM in general is something that should have been done by an area by area basis. Instead, a few mechanics were changed on the global scale. The lazy way to cover that up were the PvE skills. A lazy (or quick) solution to a lazy (or quick) addition.

Keira Nightgale · Dec 20, 2008, 01:24 PM // 13:24

maybe Pve only skills were made to balance out difficulty of HM? It was A-net way to balance out the new game content without overhauling the precedent skills. Areas like DoA (mallyx especially) were almost impossible for the average pug before pve skills.

upier · Dec 20, 2008, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Light of Cantha

That's overly optimistic. The same problems that exist now with PvE, existed before these overpowered PvE skills were introduced. DoA was flawed for years and it saw little change, and I think when HM was introduced, the only PvE skills that were available were the Sunspear ones. Could be wrong though, it's been awhile. I just don't recall CoP being used when HM was launched.

Fixing the issues with PvE would require a pretty big change, something I imagine would be very time consuming. I just don't see A.Net investing the time required; nor should they. Their efforts should be geared towards GW2. That band aid is about the best thing you're going to get.

HM in general is something that should have been done by an area by area basis. Instead, a few mechanics were changed on the global scale. The lazy way to cover that up were the PvE skills. A lazy (or quick) solution to a lazy (or quick) addition.

You don't force something onto them by playing the moronic content.
You force them by saying screw you and screw GW2!

Yes, it is too late to really fix GW PvE.
But - if something were to happen (or at least influence GW2 PvE) - I'd SERIOUSLY hope it wouldn't go the way of "CoP is good!" or even worse "CoP should be buffed!".

Abedeus · Dec 20, 2008, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keira Nightgale

maybe Pve only skills were made to balance out difficulty of HM? It was A-net way to balance out the new game content without overhauling the precedent skills. Areas like DoA (mallyx especially) were almost impossible for the average pug before pve skills.

HM was hard? Really? Funny, because when I vanq I usually play on my Ranger that has only Save Yourselves (but I rarely use it, even if I have it on my bar), Drunken Master (because name is leet and I like shooting a bit faster) and... MAAAYBE Pain Inverter for bosses.

xeRox teh Sorcerer · Dec 20, 2008, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

HM was hard? Really? Funny, because when I vanq I usually play on my Ranger that has only Save Yourselves (but I rarely use it, even if I have it on my bar), Drunken Master (because name is leet and I like shooting a bit faster) and... MAAAYBE Pain Inverter for bosses.

Wow that must be really boring.

spirit of defeat · Dec 21, 2008, 09:38 PM // 21:38

The PVE skills I use the most are [vampirism] and [summon spirits].
On Topic.
How about changing the skill so damage only is dealt when an skill is interrupted.

the_jos · Dec 22, 2008, 01:19 PM // 13:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

But do you need a brain for CoP?

It's the age old problem - it allows people that shouldn't be doing it to do it.

That's not a CoP problem, it's a consumables problem.

If a lot of PUGs play a certain team build it does not mean it's overpowered.
PUG is about getting things done with minimal risk and 'maximum' return.
Where maximum return is limited by the minimal risk element.
First of all PUG teams are fail-safe. Tank&Spank is all about that. You need one skilled player who knows how to tank, perhaps one decent monk and the rest of the players is just there to make sure things don't fail if the tank or monk makes a mistake.
The back-draw of this is that it's slow in general.

Take the old Kaiz' build for DoA. Other teams managed to play DoA before that, but Kaiz' made it accessible for less experienced groups. Most of the teams played it. Was it overpowered? Not really.
B/P in ToPK, trapper teams in UW and FoW. B/P in Urgoz's, Steel Wall in Deep.
Used by almost all PUG teams, most brainless except for one or two players, still not overpowered.

And I still don't get why people keep bitching about PvE skills while the root problem is consumables. Those enable players to do what they shouldn't be doing. Even Ursan turned into a clawless kitten without consumables in many areas.
Fix that and we talk about PvE skills.

upier · Dec 22, 2008, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

That's not a CoP problem, it's a consumables problem.

Fix that and we talk about PvE skills.

CoP is a buffed pre-nerf SP. There is a reason why SP got trashed.

Consumables are an issue. But even without them - PvE skills still are obscenely overpowered.

the_jos · Dec 22, 2008, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

CoP is a buffed pre-nerf SP. There is a reason why SP got trashed.

Consumables are an issue. But even without them - PvE skills still are obscenely overpowered.

The reason it got trashed was mainly because of PvP as far as I can recall, which had a lot of spirit meta builds at that time. And a high damage AoE spell that recharges whenever it hits a spirit is not very mesmer-like, since according to A-net mesmers should fit in single-target shutdown. Nuking was never a mesmer's role and SP turned it into just that. CoP changed this, but PvE only. It was introduced because PvE PUG 'meta' is all about tanking and nuking, which excluded mesmers (and several other professions).
CoP and other PvE skills are a bandage for this, though a not-so-good one.

And you are right, some PvE skills are obscenely overpowered.
However, I can say the same about the pre-nerfed DoA environment for example. There was only one relyable way of playing it for PUG and that was Kaiz' tank&spank build. And it took ages to play all areas. All because A-net decided that the way to make things difficult was to add more foes and to add environmental effects. Yay, good way to exclude every single-target profession. There were some nice discussions on this topic in the PvE mesmer's forum.
Overpowered PvE skills were A-net's answer to profession discrimination. A bad implementation but still an attempt.

However, the obscenely overpowered PvE skills are only that in the hands of skilled players. Sure, less experienced players can use them, but a lot will not use them most efficient. To stay with mesmer terms, it's like putting backfire on a foe which has only 10HP left. Yay, big damage when it casts a spell. And a complete waste of energy. Nuke on reload could be fun, but it's not always the best.

And since you brought up SP, let's talk about some other truely overpowered skills in PvE.
One is called Aegis and it migrates a lot of damage. Even a braindead hero can chain it. Now should we nerf that one into byte-heaven because it can be played by everyone and their mother and it enables them to do play in areas where they shouldn't play?
How about Discord. Something that was abused in GvG and got a nerf. Because heroes react too well. We should also get heroes out of PvE, they are to good at conditional spikes (something that also can be abused and not only with Discord).
Protective spirit has been on the 'it should get a nerf' for ages now. But the game depends too much on it. Today some retarted hench even pre-protted me when I ran into a group of foes.
Spiteful Spirit? Now we are talking overpowered. Kills everyone and their mother in seconds, specially when foes are balled. Enfeeble Blood. Foes do damage? Soul Reaping. Nah, doesn't need a nerf, 45 energy every 15 seconds is about right. That's why the best PvE healers are Ne/X.
I can extend this list for some time if you want me to.

Now let's talk about those obscene overpowered PvE skills again.
They aren't that overpowered compared to some alternatives that are available through normal skills and mechanics.
And even better, we can enhance them with consumables.

Believe me, the real problem is consumables and PvE skills are a very minor issue compared to that.

upier · Dec 23, 2008, 10:13 AM // 10:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

Believe me, the real problem is consumables and PvE skills are a very minor issue compared to that.

I am not disagreeing with most of the things - I've said the exactly same thing in either this thread or others that I have bitched in.
What I do have a problem with though is saying that PvE skills are a minor issue compared to consumables.
Which would you prefer in PvE with your normal stupid team - the super duper PvP skills (=skills that appear in both formats, regardless of PvE-only versions of said skills) and consumables OR super duper PvP skills and PvE-only skills?
I know what I'd go with because I know what I go with every day!
And with that - I really don't see how you can say that PvE skills are a "very minor issue" compared to cons.

Athrun Feya · Dec 23, 2008, 12:21 PM // 12:21

I really don't understand how people can find CoP so overpowered but not SY!

For the general community (being those who haven't played in cryway teams) theoretically it does sound overpowered. Echo-chaining 300 armor ignoring damage in about 5+ seconds worth of spike from 4 or so casters - a whole 1200 armour ignoring damage.

The reality of cryway teams could not be more different. First is the task of balling 50+ foes into a reasonably tight ball to ensure CoP hits all of them. I will stress that perfect spikes are quite rare due to variations in health or any healing enemies may have - but our old friend EoE often cleans this up, so getting everything at least under 90% is important. Specifically in DoA if one party member falls a few seconds late your spike has failed and within the 12 seconds it takes for the next wave of CoP damage, Deep Freeze has ran out and half your party has been wiped. Echo-chaining is also not the way to do a spike, stretching out your spike cast time is probably the best idea if you want to increase team casualties (consider wandering eye + CoP in places where foes wand/attack a lot, like The Deep, and E-surge+CoP in other places such as DoA). One thing I noticed when starting Cryway Deep Runs instead of SF ele is that it is quicker, but if anything goes wrong it is often more stretched out and painful than SF because of the damage is not constant.

Similarly, on paper SY looks overpowered. A 82.5% damage reduction on condition a few party members build up the required adrenaline and chain SY. For those who have actually played some sort of physical way, they can be safe in the knowledge they are definately more experienced using a build which involves mashing things for adrenaline and takes, on average, about double the time to clear elite areas.

If there was no SY! I'm confident people would come up with another method to make physical way viable (but perhaps a more fragile team). Likewise, if there was no Cry of Pain "tank'n'spank" would still exist (back to FoC spikes or Fire eles + weakness no doubt, maybe even E-surge - again, a more fragile team). I don't see how people can differentiate between how powerful these skills are. Both skills define what your party is going to look like - SY! is mainly physical based and CoP mainly caster based.

Out of cryway teams, a conditional 100 armour ignoring damage every 12 seconds is not overpowered. CoP isn't a reliable damage source for general pve given its current recharge time - it's only when twinned with other broken skills like AP that it becomes more useful.

Moreover, why the drama now? Why? Cry of Pain has changed very little since added to the game, the Deep build emerged about 9 months ago and people used it happily for at least 6 months with no problem. It's not the answer to ursan, you just need to look at DoA or the price of Obsidian Shards and realise these areas are still dying. Yes, PuG groups are attempting Cryway but how many of those are actually successful? The community is blighted by this view of cryway yet most who hold this view have never actually played it, and it shows.

Avarre · Dec 23, 2008, 12:23 PM // 12:23

Delete PvE skills, fix the game instead of breaking it more.